tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7612793.post4421928860487628371..comments2024-03-27T23:59:49.801+00:00Comments on Stoat: Legislation: BOSTOCK v. CLAYTON COUNTY, GEORGIA William M. Connolleyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05836299130680534926noreply@blogger.comBlogger69125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7612793.post-16155414631312458332020-06-23T03:59:37.092+00:002020-06-23T03:59:37.092+00:00@izen
Search for Brendan Zietsch, Fah Sathirapong...@izen<br /><br />Search for Brendan Zietsch, Fah Sathirapongsasuti<br /><br />first hit is: DOI: 10.1126/science.aat7693 <br /><br />"all tested genetic variants accounted for 8 to 25% of variation in male and female same-sex sexual behavior"<br /><br />Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07567197089095711546noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7612793.post-26708504250276539652020-06-23T00:15:46.891+00:002020-06-23T00:15:46.891+00:00@-Phil
The best evidence is that inheritable genot...@-Phil<br />The best evidence is that inheritable genotype accounts for less than 1% of the sexual behaviour of individuals.<br />(Brendan Zietsch, Fah Sathirapongsasuti)izenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13782090976414192570noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7612793.post-40838536451835314662020-06-22T14:09:16.650+00:002020-06-22T14:09:16.650+00:00@izen: In this specific case, there is lots of evi...@izen: In this specific case, there is lots of evidence.<br /><br /><br />Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07567197089095711546noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7612793.post-46186444494680016672020-06-22T06:08:45.832+00:002020-06-22T06:08:45.832+00:00@-Phil
"So rookies think that natural selecti...@-Phil<br />"So rookies think that natural selection works."<br /><br />Rookies tend to think, and look for, narrative involving natural selection for EVERY phenotype variation, even when they are not even established as genotypes.izenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13782090976414192570noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7612793.post-30198425238749922992020-06-22T04:10:32.716+00:002020-06-22T04:10:32.716+00:00@ izen "As you admit, you are pointing out th...@ izen "As you admit, you are pointing out the absurdity of eugenics."<br /><br />I'm pointing out some other absurdities as well.<br /><br /><br />"Of Italian Catholics. With large families."<br /><br />Oddly, the same has been found in other studies. Like in Greece, before Christianity.<br /><br /><br />"the confounding factor of birth order."<br /><br />Birth order of brothers doesn't have any impact on the reproduction of sisters.<br /><br /><br />"Trying to find a 'Just So' story to give them some evolutionary advantage is making the rookie mistake of thinking that all traits, and the variance within them is always and by necessity shaped by reproductive advantage.<br /> Sometimes in genetics, shtuff happens."<br /><br />So rookies think that natural selection works.<br /><br />Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07567197089095711546noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7612793.post-77870236796198915212020-06-22T03:13:33.035+00:002020-06-22T03:13:33.035+00:00>> someone's right to fair treatment tru...>> someone's right to fair treatment trumps someone else's right to discriminate<br /><br />>I disagree that it automatically trumps other rights. <br /><br />What? Does this sentence mean: someone's right to fair treatment does not trump someone else's right to discriminate?<br /><br />Not sure what automatically is doing there. Are you saying sometimes you do have a right to discriminate?Nosmohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11368896270775821452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7612793.post-64302777174124939592020-06-21T23:46:07.850+00:002020-06-21T23:46:07.850+00:00>> Rights and liberties are different words....>> Rights and liberties are different words. <br /><br />A distinction without a lot of difference. Liberty in this case implies the right to take certain actions without sanction. Rights include the liberty to live your life away from the job without punishment.CapitalistImperialistPighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17523405806602731435noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7612793.post-66800353863995973052020-06-21T22:57:35.132+00:002020-06-21T22:57:35.132+00:00"> Free Markets don't prevent discrimi..."> Free Markets don't prevent discrimination.<br /><br />I don't think that true. Unless you mean "prevent *all* discrimination *completely*. In which case the answer is "duh". But neither does law."<br /><br /><br />So how will you test your hypothesis? How much discrimination prevention does the Free Market give Trans people? How much more Free does the market need to be so that there doesn't need to be laws protecting Trans people? <br /><br />What it looks like is you're starting with a philosophical/ideological position without actually testing it.<br /> I think you're also underplaying the effects of discrimination.<br />Nathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12139055978545659341noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7612793.post-34828086985987114342020-06-21T17:28:33.649+00:002020-06-21T17:28:33.649+00:00@-WC
"To you, there is no problem. To other p...@-WC<br />"To you, there is no problem. To other people, some. You want to substitute your judgement for theirs."<br /><br />When I was an employer my criteria were for a person who would turn up on time and perform the required task in an adequate manner for most of the time. (we all have our 'off' days)<br />If their job involved interactions with the public (which it often did) I also expected them to behave in a responsible and respectful manner.<br /><br />If they matched those expectations but a member of the public did not show them a reciprocal respect for some reason, most commonly ethnicity, I refused service to the person.<br /><br />@-"You refuse to see that their could even be a problem, so blinkered are you."<br /><br />No, I have direct experience that long ago removed my blinkers. But if the problem was the discrimination on the part of the public when the employee was effective, responsible, and reliable, then I imposed my own judgement and discriminated against that member of the public. izenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13782090976414192570noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7612793.post-41796961962518388702020-06-21T16:42:02.715+00:002020-06-21T16:42:02.715+00:00> Should the employer be allowed to fire a blac...> Should the employer be allowed to fire a black or disabled person...<br /><br />What do you mean "should"? Morally, or legally? Legally the racial one is clear, since title VII already covers that. Morally, I think it makes you a "bad person" if you do that, but the state doesn't intervene in every instance of poor moral character, as you'd hope.<br /><br />> If the two employees are effectively equal in competence, what problem<br /><br />You reinforce my point. You refuse to see that their could even be a problem, so blinkered are you. To you, there is no problem. To other people, some. You want to substitute your judgement for theirs.William M. Connolleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05836299130680534926noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7612793.post-79496087466573456602020-06-21T16:38:00.403+00:002020-06-21T16:38:00.403+00:00Rights and liberties are different words. If I had...Rights and liberties are different words. If I had chosen to speak of the "rights" of employers I'd have used quotes there too. Liberty is a simpler word.William M. Connolleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05836299130680534926noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7612793.post-90049250039630724412020-06-21T16:31:43.257+00:002020-06-21T16:31:43.257+00:00PS - Not in my >>dotage<< yet? Let...PS - Not in my >>dotage<< yet? Let's just admit that I'm well on my way, but I can still sometimes recognize bullshit when I see it.CapitalistImperialistPighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17523405806602731435noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7612793.post-39515808076457213342020-06-21T16:27:23.921+00:002020-06-21T16:27:23.921+00:00>>>> "rights"
I think you m...>>>> "rights"<br /><br />I think you mischaracterize my point. No quotes on the -liberties- of employers. Quotes on the -rights- of employees. I don't see how you can deny that this implies a different status of the respective rights of employers and employees. I think that your history makes it clear that you prize rights or liberties of capital over those of labor - you have argued elsewhere that money deserves its own vote.<br /><br />I take the opposite point of view. I think that any rights adhering to capital should be subordinate to and subject to its benefits for all individuals in a society, not merely those of the rich.CapitalistImperialistPighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17523405806602731435noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7612793.post-55627919785783051462020-06-21T15:16:15.654+00:002020-06-21T15:16:15.654+00:00@-WC
"The idea that it is possible to arrange...@-WC<br />"The idea that it is possible to arrange the law so that no-one suffers is wrong."<br /><br />Agreed.<br />The aim is to arrange the law to minimise suffering.<br /><br />@-"You have no sympathy for the problems of the employers."<br /><br />If the two employees are effectively equal in competence, what problem does the sexual preference of either pose ?<br />Unless it 'offends' against their deeply held belief in a religious injunction ?<br />However most seem to have overcome such a belief in the much stronger religious injunction against divorce.izenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13782090976414192570noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7612793.post-67912934387260926892020-06-21T15:10:37.848+00:002020-06-21T15:10:37.848+00:00Should the employer be allowed to fire a black or ...Should the employer be allowed to fire a black or disabled person because they make some of their customers uncomfortable? If not, what's the difference between the funeral home trans case that was just before the Supreme Court?David Appellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03318269033139447591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7612793.post-9995637380548697242020-06-21T15:03:47.463+00:002020-06-21T15:03:47.463+00:00@-WC
"Which reminds me: I notice no-one has a...@-WC<br />"Which reminds me: I notice no-one has anything to say about the titular discriminator in the case being the govt, not free enterprise at all."<br /><br />Okay, the State of Georgia had no law against discrimination on the basis of sexual preference. It relied on previous judgements that section VII did not apply. The govt of Clayton County is a State entity so not subject to Federal rules on anti-discrimination.<br />The political, religious and cultural tradition of the State favours discrimination on the basis of sexual preference.<br />Just as it has long favoured discrimination on the basis of ethnicity.<br />Both are now illegitimate by federal dictact. It is unlikely however that the State of Geogia will look to secede.izenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13782090976414192570noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7612793.post-17263684133609380432020-06-21T15:01:06.542+00:002020-06-21T15:01:06.542+00:00> Discrimination and fists have a lot in common...> Discrimination and fists have a lot in common.<br />> So those who...<br /><br />You, like it would seem so many others, appear to view this one-sidedly: from the viewpoint of the employees only. You have no sympathy for the problems of the employers. I think that's a defect in your worldview. Progressives often claim to be good at understanding other people's view but that seems in practice to be rather restricted.<br /><br />The idea that it is possible to arrange the law so that no-one suffers is wrong.<br /><br />> someone's right to fair treatment trumps someone else's right to discriminate<br /><br />I disagree that it automatically trumps other rights.William M. Connolleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05836299130680534926noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7612793.post-61104992231750848582020-06-21T14:45:49.586+00:002020-06-21T14:45:49.586+00:00@-Phil
"@izen, your suggestion has little eff...@-Phil<br />"@izen, your suggestion has little effect on future generations."<br /><br />That is rather the point.<br />As you admit, you are pointing out the absurdity of eugenics.<br />Twin studies and studies claiming to find some heritable aspect of human character are notoriously dubious.<br />The study you link to that finds increased fecundity in the sisters of male homosexuals is based at least in part IIRC on an Italian study.<br />Of Italian Catholics. With large families.<br />It is unclear whether the researchers allowed for, or even were aware of the confounding factor of birth order.<br />Studies in non-human mammal and avian social animals often detect a range of sexual preference and activity.<br />Trying to find a 'Just So' story to give them some evolutionary advantage is making the rookie mistake of thinking that all traits, and the variance within them is always and by necessity shaped by reproductive advantage.<br />Sometimes in genetics, shtuff happens.izenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13782090976414192570noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7612793.post-21935320401764350522020-06-21T14:37:40.825+00:002020-06-21T14:37:40.825+00:00Because it doesn't happen enough to warrant a ...<i> Because it doesn't happen enough to warrant a law?<br /><br />Mostly that; but also the fewer laws the better, in general; and resolving conflict without the formal law is better if possible; and failing to realise that this is a conflict of liberties (when between employee and private employer), not a one-sided matter, is bad. </i><br /><br />The consequences for the person being discriminated against are often severe. The idea that it doesn't happen often enough to warrant a law strikes me as ridiculous. <br /><br />Of course it is not a one-sided but someone's right to fair treatment trumps someone else's right to discriminate, especially when that 'person' is a company, corporation or institution. It is rarely a conflict between equal partners. <br /><br />Sorry but I can't come close to buying this argument.<br /><br /><br /><br />Nosmohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11368896270775821452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7612793.post-18078421282618797182020-06-21T14:31:32.167+00:002020-06-21T14:31:32.167+00:00William wrote:
I don't have a strong opinion. ...William wrote:<br /><i>I don't have a strong opinion. On the whole, I would be inclined to make no law in this area, on the grounds that it is not necessary.</i><br /><br />So those who brought their case before the Supreme Court, and all those who have been fired for being LGBTQ, should just accept it and suffer quietly?David Appellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03318269033139447591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7612793.post-42214934790759641942020-06-21T13:16:29.240+00:002020-06-21T13:16:29.240+00:00Oh, and how can asexuality persist when it also se...Oh, and how can asexuality persist when it also seems to have at least some genetic roots?<br /><br />https://repository.arizona.edu/handle/10150/625011<br /><br />Interesting, yes?<br /><br /><br />And religious belief/disbelief, fire fighters, ... and other traits of personality that seem to have some genetic basis?<br /><br />Some of these traits are valuable to the rest of society, so we hope that they are preserved. Some might be valuable, others are at least colorful, some might not be valuable, but the side effects might be valuable.<br /><br />@izen, your suggestion has little effect on future generations.Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07567197089095711546noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7612793.post-37158607653502852262020-06-21T13:00:27.938+00:002020-06-21T13:00:27.938+00:00@DBB Identical twin studies, family tree of Greek ...@DBB Identical twin studies, family tree of Greek nobility...<br /><br />First Google Scholar hit was this:<br /><br />https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-016-0742-2<br /><br />This is not a binary subject. Lots of complications, including birth order.<br /><br />I'm not seriously proposing eugenics. Just pointing out the absurdity.Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07567197089095711546noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7612793.post-87865968165620002312020-06-21T12:29:19.871+00:002020-06-21T12:29:19.871+00:00Discrimination and fists have a lot in common.
You...Discrimination and fists have a lot in common.<br />Your liberty to swing them without penalty ends at the tip of another persons nose.<br />The difference with employers and employees is that the unequal distribution of power leaves the employee unable to punch back.<br />Therefore a socially defined rule, or law, is required to correct the ability of one party to cause damage to another with impunity. The FM is unable to do this.<br /><br />Religions often arrogate to themselves a 'right' to punch others for theological reasons.izenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13782090976414192570noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7612793.post-20773674915674529182020-06-21T09:21:07.127+00:002020-06-21T09:21:07.127+00:00> Free Markets don't prevent discrimination...> Free Markets don't prevent discrimination.<br /><br />I don't think that true. Unless you mean "prevent *all* discrimination *completely*. In which case the answer is "duh". But neither does law. <br /><br />> Because it doesn't happen enough to warrant a law?<br /><br />Mostly that; but also the fewer laws the better, in general; and resolving conflict without the formal law is better if possible; and failing to realise that this is a conflict of liberties (when between employee and private employer), not a one-sided matter, is bad.<br /><br />Which reminds me: I notice no-one has anything to say about the titular discriminator in the case being the govt, not free enterprise at all.<br /><br />> Religious<br /><br />Yes, the religious folk seem worried about their privileges. I'm baffled that they're allowed any, given the constitution.<br /><br />> "rights"<br /><br />Well done, not in your dotage yet, you've belatedly spotted my quotes. But you've misinterpreted them. They were intended to mean that the word "rights" is a tricky one; that not everyone means the same or even close to the same things by it. I don't think I've yet written my magnum opus on rights yet; perhaps <a href="http://mustelid.blogspot.com/2018/10/equal-rights-for-others-does-not-mean.html" rel="nofollow">Equal rights for others does not mean fewer rights for you?</a> is the closest I have so far.William M. Connolleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05836299130680534926noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7612793.post-57773899068337027752020-06-21T04:24:00.490+00:002020-06-21T04:24:00.490+00:00Izen asks what Dr. C really thinks. He isn't ...Izen asks what Dr. C really thinks. He isn't big about laying his cards on the table but this time he has.<br /><br />>> The conflict is between the liberties of the employer, and the "rights" of the employee.<br /><br />The quotation marks are significant. Dr. C. doesn't really think employees have any inherent rights.CapitalistImperialistPighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17523405806602731435noreply@blogger.com