2025-10-07

Prospects for Peace

PXL_20251002_145837835In the Middle East that is; the Russian invasion of Ukraine is doomed to grind on for longer I fear; more on that anon. Trump has a cunning plan, and Netenyahu has accepted it1; Hamxs's rather delayed response is "yes, but"2, as expected; Trump the eternal optimist3 thinks that things are going well.

Talks, as ever, continue. But while they do I have a chance to predict the future and get it wrong6, so everyone can tell me how wrong I was. Do you have a better prediction? Leave it in the comments5.

Hamxs is soaked in blood and has no function beyond terrorism, or resistance as they would put it; agreeing to disarm would be organisational suicide, so I don't see that happening. Looking at the plan, the actionable timeline appears to be:

* If both sides agree to this proposal, the war will immediately end. Israeli forces will withdraw to the agreed upon line to prepare for a hostage release. During this time, all military operations, including aerial and artillery bombardment, will be suspended, and battle lines will remain frozen until conditions are met for the complete staged withdrawal.
* Within 72 hours of Israel publicly accepting this agreement, all hostages, alive and deceased, will be returned.
* Once all hostages are released, Israel will release 250 life sentence prisoners plus 1,700 Gazans who were detained after 7 October 2023, including all women and children detained in that context. For every Israeli hostage whose remains are released, Israel will release the remains of 15 deceased Gazans.

So nominally (a) both agree; (b) fighting stops, some kind of withdrawl; (c) within 72 hours all hostages released; (d) Israel releases some terrorists. I find myself doubtful that Hamxs will go for (c). The hostages are useless to them, indeed a millstone round their neck, but they have been too stupid to see that in the past and I don't see them getting any clearer in their thinking.

What of other instances where long-term terrorists have given up? The obvious analogue is Ireland, where the IRA eventually gave up. There were key differences though: mostly, the conflict was embedded in civil society on both sides; and the world was obviously just passing it by; the public and the world was not egging them on4. This was organisational suicide for the IRA but not for the individual members, a possible model for Hamxs, but the situations are not really analogous.

Speaking of the public egging them on, and referencing Polling Pales, there's an updated poll from May. Whether it can be trusted I leave you to decide for yourself; I'll discuss it as though it can be. I'll start with killed-and-injured, because it is good news: the proportion of families with killed-or-injured has gone down; only slightly, but definitely. This is remarkable.

pales-2025

The report doesn't think it is remarkable, because it doesn't remark on it. It is not impossible of course: if you manage to wipe out enough entire families, it could happen. But more likely it is either inaccuracies, or sampling errors, or people lying, or whatever7

A solid majority remain delusional: A majority of 56% (65% in the West Bank 42% in the Gaza Strip) expect Hamas and Israel to reach a ceasefire agreement in a few days while 41% do not expect that. That's essentially the same as a year previous. On the plus side, 48% of Gazans... say they support the demonstrations that took place over the past two months in the Gaza Strip demanding that Hamas abandon control over that Strip so there may be some hope. About 50% would be willing to emigrate; I would say that's a good solution if it were possible to find somewhere to take them. And (fig 17) armed struggle is now less popular than negotiations, at least in Gaza; the West Bank, which sees rather less armed struggle, prefers to fight.

Overall I think that agreement leading to release of the hostages is unlikely for now, whilst hoping that I am wrong.

Returning to reporting of yer conflict, Aunty says Hamxs wants to keep enough firepower to defend itself against Palestinians who want to take their revenge for nearly two decades of brutal rule and the catastrophe the Hamas attacks brought down on them.

Not really fitting into my flow of text, but I feel I ought to say the obvious: the claims of Israeli genocide are bollox and mostly malicious.


Notes

oglaf-dick

1. As far as I can tell, unconditionally. He has subsequently said things that make this somewhat hard to square, but nonetheless the words "I support your plan to end the war in Gaza which achieves our war aims" (or their Hebrew equivalent? The meeja is really appalling at providing full information) have been uttered.

2. Actually it is far more complicated than that with various factions disagreeing, and Hamxs's actual words being so ambiguous as to be close to meaningless, as expected. The fat corrupt political types living in luxury in Qatar are naturally keen to continue their fat lives, though the recent bombing may have reminded them that they don't get a free pass; the menwithgunz in Gaza have no lives other than terrorism, so are unlikely to want to turn into unemployable ex-terrorists at peace.

3. You will correctly object that Trump is also an eternal liar and uninterested in distinguishing true from false, but I think that he is also genuinely optimistic, like many such.

4. Indeed, I imagine most of the IRA's wives and mothers were urging them to give up. Shamefully, now, useless deluded folks in the West are still egging the Pales on. These people need to find meaning in their own lives, rather than other people's conflicts.

5. Speaking of comments, do try to avoid getting yourself spammed. Repeat offenders will just be suppressed.

6. 2025/10/09: Initial reports are promising and (10/10) a ceasefire appears to be in effect. 10/11: ceasefire still seems to be in place, but "Hamas hasn’t changed. It still believes that weapons and violence are the only means to keep its movement alive". Joy in Israel and Gaza but not amongst the "progressive" in the West. 10/14: Pales behaving badly: part 1, part 2, part 3. Hamxs have now released the hostages they haven't killed, but not the ones they have killed; this bad-faith slow-walking isn't promising.

7. Another interesting discrepancy: see this X post and the corresponding Graun article: the male / female death rate inferred from orphancy is 6, not the 3 reported by Hamxs.

Refs


Bring Back the Internet Gatekeepers says RH. I remain doubtful (in general; I will of course moderate here as the spirit moves me).
* "A whole lot of BS political views basically amount to assuming that life in our hard won civilisations is just the way things are, and that you can simply remove the foundations".
Will the absence of robotaxis in Europe mark the moment its citizens notice how far their continent has fallen behind?
* "Gaza is awash with guns and desperate people, and Hamas has no interest in relinquishing its weapons. More repression and chaos may await the devastated strip": El Econo.
* Debunking the Genocide Allegations: A Reexamination of the Israel-Hamas War from October 7, 2023 to June 1, 2025. Danny Orbach, Jonathan Boxman, Yagil Henkin, Jonathan Braverman.

25 comments:

Peter H said...

Re genocide I think I'd like to know what you think genocide is or what a genocide would look like.

Re the poll. Is it a bit like forest fires? The more you burn the less there is to burn? Bingo, no problem...

Phil said...

All those held by Hamas are "hostages".
All those held by Israel are "terrorists".

Each and every one, in all cases, now and forever into the future.

Amen.

William M. Connolley said...

We all know what an actual genocide looks like. The IWM has an exhibition, if you need any refresher, which you shouldn't.

FF: no; the death numbers are too small; I should have realised that earlier.

Phil said...

Genocide is a fuzzy word.
Is 5% of a population genocide? Or must it be above 50%?
There were about 6 million Jews killed in the Holocaust. That is about 2 in 3 for Europe, and about 1 in 3 worldwide.
What's the percentage limit?

https://topforeignstocks.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/World-War-II-Death-Toll-by-Country.jpg

Who decides? You, or the population of Israel's largest supporter?

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/10/12/world/middleeast/israel-us-polls-support.html?unlocked_article_code=1.s08.27wK.XcCmg9PgOQk2&smid=url-share

Tom said...

I believe genocide is legally judged more by intent than actual results.

Phil said...

By intent, Hamas's attack was certainly genocide.

Israel's attack on Gaza is more complex.

Some people don't handle complex issues.

Phil said...

Right vs Wrong, or Right vs Right?

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/10/15/opinion/israel-gaza-trump.html?unlocked_article_code=1.tk8.iURB._CXJzTpbWnRx&smid=url-share

William M. Connolley said...

Thanks for the link. But the RvR is False Equivalence. Hamxs is definitely not right; they are a bunch of would-be-genocidal thugs with, regrettably, a deal of support from the population of Gaza.

"The Middle East, as I see it, reflects a contest between two national yearnings" is weird: if by TME he means the entire region, then there are a pile of nations there, Arab ones if you like being Arab, Muslim ones if you like being Muslim, and one Israel if you like being a liberal democracy. These nations are at peace. Then there's the self-made cesspit of Gaza, whose yearning as expressed by Hamxs is killing people.

Continuing the false equivalence we have "denied the famine they inflicted on Gazan children"; but the famine stuff is as wrong as the genocide stuff; see for example "Debunking the Genocide Allegations: A Reexamination of the Israel-Hamas War from October 7, 2023 to June 1, 2025 which I've already linked.

Phil said...

A resident of Gaza has no rights? Not now, not forever into the future?
Because Gaza is currently ruled by Hamas?

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

Tom said...

No man is free save he free himself

Phil said...

So just exactly how would that work for a person in Gaza?

Nathan said...

"Hamxs is definitely not right; they are a bunch of would-be-genocidal thugs with, regrettably, a deal of support from the population of Gaza."
Same can be said for the Government of Israel.

Tom said...

Phil, it seems blindingly obvious that Gazans need to rise up against Hamas. Policy responses should consist of actively encouraging and assisting this. But the Gazans will have to do it.

Phil said...

Debunking that isn't creditable. Brandolini's law.

Phil said...

Perhaps necessary. Clearly not sufficient. A person in Gaza would still be in the largest ever open air prison camp, even with no Hamas.

Nathan said...

To help people here who seem confused and unwilling to explore history. Here's a good introduction https://bsky.app/profile/willdalrymple.bsky.social/post/3m3jsxzt6oc23

There's no chance for peace here anytime soon. Needs serious work, and serious reconciliation. Otherwise it's a fight to the desth

Nathan said...

People in the West Bank did exactly this: "Gazans need to rise up against Hamas". They're still being killed and having land stolen.

Phil said...

Well, it looks like all the hostages are released. Sure, some bodies buried under buildings or in collapsed tunnels that will take more time, and may never be recovered.

And guess what? Promised food aid has been cut off again, and the bombings have started again.

Who ever would have guessed that would happen...

Maybe tomorrow will be different. That's either hope, or insanity.

William M. Connolley said...

You're back to False Equivalence (if I make the generous assumption that "bombings have started again" refers to both sides), or lying-by-omission (if I take the more natural reading of "bombing" to refer to IDF actions). And speaking of omission, the agreement included dead as well as living hostages; Hamxs seems to be slow-walking their release.

Hamxs attacked IDF, killing two, wounding others; the IDF retaliated, as you'd expect. Hamxs need to stop pissing about. Their path-to-prosperity is peace; or rather, that's the path for Gaza as a whole; it is the path-to-extinction for Hamxs as an organisation, because who needs a bunch of armed thugs if you're at peace?

Peter H said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Phil said...

"You're back to False Equivalence , or lying-by-omission."

I see a very unequal situation, so any "Equivalence" you see is your own. As for omissions, you might review the things you don't mention.


Before the incident mentioned, the IDF shot up a car that had strayed past the invisible and unmarked danger line, killing more than two (nine). And bombs dropped over Gaza killed a lot more than two, perhaps 38 people mostly not related in any way to the incident mentioned. So about 2::40+, agree isn't equal? Or do you want to omit the deaths you don't care about?

" And speaking of omission, the agreement included dead as well as living hostages; Hamxs seems to be slow-walking their release."

'Hamas said on Wednesday that it had delivered all of the remains in its possession, and that finding the others would take more time and effort because of the devastation in the territory.'

"Israeli and Hamas officials have both said that deadline could be unrealistic and the group needs more time, particularly to find and dig up hostages who were killed."

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/10/18/world/middleeast/israel-military-gaza-strike-cease-fire.html?unlocked_article_code=1.u08.ukrL.YTMU2PL2fha_&smid=url-share

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/10/04/world/middleeast/hamas-trump-gaza-deal.html?unlocked_article_code=1.vE8.vEUI.SFoIrL55W5CW&smid=url-share


"Hamxs need to stop pissing about. Their path-to-prosperity is peace; or rather, that's the path for Gaza as a whole; it is the path-to-extinction for Hamxs as an organisation, because who needs a bunch of armed thugs if you're at peace? "

UK still has a royal family, yes?

If Hamas was extinct, I fail to see how there would be any prosperity for Gaza. Still no resources, little water, no access to trade, ... What possible basis for prosperity would exist?


Tom said...

I doubt if Stoat's beliefs have radically changed--I think it likely that the range of subjects he writes about has expanded. No resources, little water... Hmm. That's why Monaco and Luxembourg are such hellscapes...

William M. Connolley said...

Spammed.

William M. Connolley said...

Alas PH's comment fell victim to the Great Filter. Incidentally, I notice that "reply" only works with the mobile interface not the traditional one; odd.

As to change... not radically I think; but certainly I have shifted over the years. For example, see here for some stuff that, as I've noted, I would not write now. I might even try to write a post change, if I can construct a coherent one.

As for the no resources, that is rather silly, as you've noted by counterexample. The other obvious counter-thought is that no-one would doubt that if these poor people were to leave, and the Israelis given care of the land, it would flourish? Per Smith: "Little else is requisite to carry a state to the highest degree of opulence from the lowest barbarism, but peace, easy taxes, and a tolerable administration of justice". Hamxs, and the Gazans, can have peace any time they choose to stop fighting. Taxes would be up to them. I think they would struggle with justice, but again that could be up to them.

Phil said...

"I think they would struggle with justice, but again that could be up to them."

We can see how this would play out by looking on the West Bank.

Old woman, unarmed, in her own olive grove, shot dead by a known Israeli, no crime prosecuted, not even a reprimand. Israelis are never prosecuted for deaths of Palestinians.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c20gnvz1975o

Much less likely for arson or for shoving guns into Palestinian faces in their home at 3AM and assorted "fun".

Palestinians can't have peace and prosperity, when they are subject to random violence. Subject to limits to travel and trade. Something that doesn't exist for Monaco. I've never heard that Luxembourg was short of water as well. 830mm per year, and a cooler climate than Gaza.

But now we get to the meat of the issue. "if these poor people were to leave, and the Israelis given care of the land, it would flourish?"

Basic thievery. Harass the current owners until they leave, or kill them. Then take the land. Yes, has a long history, see William the Conqueror, the root of ownership of your land. But yes, Israel could have a profitable district in Gaza, likely with far fewer people, as water would still be a problem.

Is that moral?